Evoking A Boundless Dialog
Replay of a 2020 Interview with EJM Zine, July 2025
Greetings! This is Jeff again. For this month, I don’t have any new (freshly-written) article to share with you because I’m still preoccupied with some other things. So right now I think it’s reasonable to share an insightful interview done back in the year 2020 with an Indonesian print Magazine called EJM Zine (East Jakarta Media), which hasn’t been shared online until right now. The interview was done originally in Indonesian and here I’m presenting the English translation of it (using both Google Translate and manual editing). The topics of this interview do not only cover anything related with Kekal but also about the creative thought-processes in relation to how I see the world and its surroundings. This may help you readers to understand how Kekal became the Kekal we see/hear today in terms of its lyrics and overall artistic presentations. It’s a long read, so please take your time and enjoy!
EJM Zine is represented by Adjie. I’d like to personally thank him for asking deep questions that are very very rare to be found in usual band interviews. 🙏
Introduction: Speaking of this band, you can enjoy all of Kekal’s songs together with friends, but we highly recommend listening to them alone. The thrill of listening to Kekal’s work is truly a way to ‘explain’ the music with serenity, and to appreciate every sentence with expansive thought. We don’t need to elaborate on the fact that their musical project is, in the narrow sense, the result of a continuous thought process in which the music is merely the focal point. We had the opportunity to interview Jeff and feel fortunate enough to produce an unusual Q&A on many subjects. For us, the article you are about to read now is the result of a most captivating and insightful conversation. We present our readers with insightful questions and a tribute to Jeff for his detailed words about his reflexivity and vision.
Chapter 1: The Creative Process
EJM: Hi man, how are you doing? We’re thrilled to be able to interview you. We’ve been studying Kekal’s lyrics throughout the entire album for a while now, and have come to the conclusion that you seem very aware of your own limitations. How do you see yourself as a musician responding to the world around you today?
Jeff: Hi there. Jeff here. First of all, I’d like to thank you for this interview. I didn’t expect Bro Adjie’s questions to delve into topics rarely asked in a typical band interview. It’s not easy for me to answer without reflecting on myself, but I’ll try to answer them honestly without mincing words. If I’ve said anything offensive, I apologize in advance.
Especially for this first question, I think my answer will vary depending on when I answer it, because it’s fundamentally related to the process of my life journey itself, and it all depends on how I position myself in the world, where I’m aware of my existence, and also how I perceive the things around me. Well, over the past two or three years, there has been a significant change in my perception towards myself and the world around me. If this question had been asked in 2005 or even 2010, my answer would have been different.
I used to write the lyrics as a means of understanding (to make sense of) fundamental personal questions that I had, whether consciously or even more deeply buried, by using music as a form of expression in the exploration process with the aim of finding the meaning of life. On the other hand, music also served as a means of releasing my frustrations, as a form of catharsis, in order to ease the pain, because I simply had no other ways to express that. I couldn’t express myself through other artistic methods. Currently, I’m going through a process of transformation within myself, especially in how I view myself and life in this world. Music likely played a significant role in shaping the beginning of this transformation. Sometimes I think that if I hadn’t written the lyrics as often as possible and reflected on them, the process of changing my perception would have taken much longer. Here I see music as a blessing in disguise. Without realizing it, music has become my teacher, and the process of interacting through musical language is a form of learning.
Now I no longer see the world with all its hustle and bustle as a phenomenon to be responded to piecemeal (strange Google Translate’s choice of words 😬, but I left that as-is), because sooner or later it will all end. But because my life is part of this world, I must position myself as a co-creator who plays an active role in sharing and channeling positive energy. What I recently realized is that all aspects of life that we perceive as physical forms can be reduced to only two types of energy: positive and negative. The smallest particle of matter, an atom, is merely a manifestation of the vibrations or waveform of energy originating from the interactions of subatomic particles that are no longer perceptible. If we talk about things at the quantum level, all perceptible elements in this world are formed from the same root: energy. So there is no fundamental difference between, for example, the White House and a fart; I just assume that farts still have more positive energy within them (than the White House).
EJM: Does knowing the landscape in such a way make it easier for you to understand life so that you have more time and energy to devote to what you create through Kekal?
Jeff: Exactly! I feel grateful to have understood and finally been able to use music as a medium where there is no longer any distance or barrier to expressing myself as I am. I started writing songs in 1990 or 1991, and it took me almost 10 years to truly make music a form of honest and genuine self-expression. I also tried painting, drawing, sketching, and so on because at that time I had more technical skills in those things than in writing songs and playing musical instruments, but for years I felt a distance and I couldn’t successfully connect myself to the form of painting.
EJM: Describe to us the relevance of Kekal with no authority other than yourself?
Jeff: Well, I don’t see myself as an authority on Kekal as a band. Kekal is simply a medium or platform, much like a particular brand of paper or canvas with a specific thickness, color, and texture. The paper already has its initial character, but without the input of writing or painting, the paper itself will have no meaning. Characterful but meaningless. So, I’m just one of many potential individuals who can write or paint on this blank sheet of paper called Kekal. I don’t want to claim to be the only one entitled to use that paper, even though I personally know its characteristics and understand how to use it responsibly. If asked why not many other musicians are interested in using Kekal as a form of expression, it’s likely because they don’t yet fully understand or grasp the initial character of what Kekal is. That’s understandable, as not all painters can easily move to different types of canvas from what they’re used to. As for whether Kekal is still relevant today, that depends purely on the listener’s judgment in a personal context, and I’ve never had a problem with that.
EJM: Currently, what is the most valuable resource for you behind the creative process of Kekal?
Jeff: I think the convenience of recording music, especially guitar and vocals, is the most important factor in the creative process. I can’t write nor read music score, so all songwriting ultimately involves recording. I used to write songs on a Walkman, then on a portable digital recorder, before considering whether they could be included in the production process. But these days, all songwriting happens simultaneously with production. I record on my computer at home.
Chapter 2: Existence and Awareness of It
EJM: What is the purpose of maintaining the existence of Kekal?
Jeff: As I’ve tried to describe before, Kekal is like a platform or medium for expression, like a blank sheet of paper that anyone can use as a form of expression. As long as those expressions can still be expressed, Kekal’s existence will always be maintained. In this sense, I’ve felt comfortable expressing myself musically using the platform of Kekal, despite the fact that I hardly listen to metal music anymore at this point. But in writing songs, I’ve become quite familiar with Kekal’s core character from the 25 years of interactions, and now it’s no longer a problem to create music that might still be categorized as “metal music” but only within the Kekal approach. It’s difficult for me to create other music outside the Kekal platform, especially categorized as metal music, because of the familiarity and comfort in expression itself. In other words, I feel most comfortable using the paper or canvas that is Kekal.
As a band, Kekal is not a form of property, but a platform for expression, and it’s no longer limited to just music, but also to other creative expressions. For example, Azhar Levi, who used to contribute music to Kekal when he was still a member of the band, now contributes artwork and photography. He no longer plays music, but that doesn’t mean he can’t contribute any artistic expression to Kekal, as the scope of artistic expression for Kekal isn’t limited to music alone, but also encompasses many other aspects and areas.
EJM: Borrowing a quote from Thomas Aquinas, “Gratia non tollit naturam (Grace doesn’t suppress nature)” Do you put Kekal’s position as a means and basic response to approach pleasure (life) and avoid pain (death), How far do you believe in the natural aspect within us?
Jeff: Over the past few years, I have gained many new insights into life (and death), and these insights have come suddenly and are spiritual in nature, related to my personal journey (the spiritual journey of my inner-self). Currently, the understanding of life and death is no longer seen based on what is perceived in the existence of this material world. Life in this material world, meaning everything that can be seen, felt, touched, and so on, is merely an illusion, and our world is only a simulation, not the true reality. So what we perceive as life in this world does not mean the real life itself, nor what we define as death when biological processes in the body stop, is actually death. Until now, the awareness that we are alive is only based on what we perceive through the existence of biological processes alone, such as breathing, growing, eating, drinking, and so on. Once these biological processes stop, does human life also stop? That is the core question that can define what is called “life” and also “death.”
Pleasure and pain are merely related to sensations, things we can feel, and in my opinion, these sensations do not necessarily represent the fundamental concepts of life and death. What we currently perceive as part of life, such as breathing, eating, sex, and so on, are also not evidence of life itself. Here, I now begin to understand why Planet Earth is said to be a living entity and aware of its existence, a conscious being, even though we don’t see it as a “living being” by purely biological definitions. The definition of life itself is determined by what is called consciousness, the awareness of its existence. This consciousness is often also synonymous with soul or spirit. This natural aspect within us is not those biological processes, but is related to the consciousness itself. The process of growth or evolution of this consciousness is what can be defined as life. Biological processes such as our body’s metabolism, as well as all the material or physical elements we can perceive, are merely support systems that enable us to understand our nature, ultimately making us the human beings we are. In other words, our consciousness requires physical and biological existence (which is essentially an illusion) to understand and discover itself, to grow and evolve.
All values that are based solely on perception are subjective and illusory, meaning each individual can have their own definition. What’s good for one individual may not be good for another. The current difficulty lies in our tendency to generalize subjective perceptions into something “standard” and become a “norm” that “must also be applied” to the general public. These errors lead to coercive factors, which, upon closer examination, stem solely from differences in perception. For example, suppose we eat at a restaurant and find the food delicious. Is that delicious food truly “delicious” in its essence, or is it merely a subjective perception that can be distorted by dogma or propaganda? What is the definition of “delicious”? Phenomena like the Brompton bicycle in Indonesia, for example, are concrete examples of a form of collective perception that arises from distortions in the dissemination of information and ultimately forms false beliefs. Kekal’s lyrics from albums released in 2000s questioned and explored many things about the nature of existence itself, and were based on subjective perceptions drawn from life experiences, therefore thematically they can be called existentialism. Kekal’s “Quantum Resolution” album has a different dimension because its lyrics are largely based on new understandings that I’ve recently obtained.
EJM: How do you feel about pouring out your ideas about today’s problems?
Jeff: I don’t have many of today’s issues to be discussed. But in my daily life, I can sometimes sense human energy. Usually, if the energy is negative, I feel uncomfortable and quite tired, sometimes even making my breathing difficult. If the energy is positive, I feel more relaxed, uplifted, and less tired. This often happens at my workplace, because we constantly interact with other people who may have opposing energies. I can’t read other people’s minds or motives; I can only sense their energy. But it’s actually enough to strengthen my new understanding of our energetic existence, beyond our perceptual illusion that only sees the physical element alone.
Chapter 3: Feelings, Emotions and Thoughts
EJM: What drives you to create something cathartic with your music and from the dystopian feelings you feel?
Jeff: I don’t see existence in this life as a dystopia, although it is clear that suffering is very dominant in life in the material world of our current dimension. This is because for so long, thousands of years since the Neolithic Revolution, this world has been under the colonization or domination of evil powers who entered our dimension and then absorbed the energy of human souls and the energy of all other lifeforms in this dimension. Therefore, they need suffering to exist in this dimension, and they continue to maintain this status quo at all costs because it is the only condition that allows them to survive. What some may perceive this as dystopia, is due to the status quo, where wars and exploitation continue persistently. But all of this will end soon!
If we are still alive in the next 20 years, I believe we will see with our own eyes the end of this status quo. The first signs will probably appear in the next year or two, when the separation of positive and negative energy within humanity will be very clear. It’s already starting to appear, but not everyone can see it yet. Eventually, after the extinction of our species and the subsequent completion of the dimension in which our world currently resides, a new world will “emerge” with a new human species. Our current species, Homo sapiens sapiens, only has about 8.2% DNA that’s active, but eventually, the percentage of active DNA in the new human will be much higher. The difference is only dimensional, related to the vibrational frequencies of our subatomic particles, much like an operating system upgrade on a computer. Our current world is said to exist in the third dimension (3D), and will eventually “ascend” to the fifth dimension (5D), where evil cannot gain access due to the limitations of their low frequency vibrations of their negative energy. If music is a form of catharsis, as long as we can honestly use music as a means of self-expression, it will become part of the release of repressed emotions that often come out unconsciously.
EJM: Music will certainly evoke different emotions in each listener. Sometimes people want to hear what they want to hear, and aren’t always prepared to feel something different from what they expected. Does every musician’s idea always clash with the listener’s or fan’s ego? What’s your reasoning?
Jeff: I think most listeners understand that music is subjective. This means that if a band has 100 listeners, for example, there are 100 different expectations for the “ideal” music in their ears. So, does the band have to create 100 different versions of music to truly suit the needs of each listener? Of course not, because there are other music that can better suit the listener’s “needs.” I also don’t see listeners’ tastes as solely based on their egos, or musical expression as solely seen from the ego of the musician.
In reality, music is subjective and there isn’t always a positive correlation between the tastes of the listener and the music maker. As long as the music is created honestly, as an expression of its creator, I think listeners will be able to understand whatever the music is, even if some expressions may contradict what they associate with their emotions. One concrete example of this that I’ve experienced myself is The Cure’s album “Seventeen Seconds.” It’s on my list of all-time favorite albums, but I only like that one album out of all the albums The Cure has released, and I don’t consider myself a fan of The Cure. I’m only a fan of “Seventeen Seconds” because the music on that album really fits my soul. Without being a fan of The Cure, I also have a lot of respect for the band and am grateful that they recorded that album. I won’t criticize their other albums just because I don’t like them or find them suitable, and I never expected Robert Smith to release an album like “Seventeen Seconds” again. If a listener expects a band’s music to be the same as their expectations, and then criticizes music that doesn’t suit their tastes, there’s something wrong with that person’s mindset. 95% of the people I meet aren’t like that, and the 5% who have problems with that will certainly have problems with the music of other bands, and most likely with themselves too!
EJM: Regarding the lyrics of all of Kekal’s albums, is it just a matter of writing what you know or are you wrestling with something deeper in your mind?
Jeff: I believe both of these themes are implicit in the lyrics of Kekal’s songs. For example, I write from observations of social life and from life experiences. Both are based on concrete perceptions, so there are things I once thought I already “knew.” But behind that, many new questions emerge, sometimes not even when I wrote the lyrics, but only afterward, and sometimes even years later, when I revisit them through a process of reflection. For example, in 2006, I wrote the lyrics for the album “The Habit of Fire,” drawing on observations of life experiences, both my own and those of others, which I then translated into a story that was, in fact, fictional, despite being based on real events. I didn’t initially understand most of the lyrics, and it wasn’t until recent years that I began to feel a connection between that album’s lyrics and my spiritual journey. It was quite shocking and gave me goosebumps when I reread the lyrics, but that doesn’t mean it was supernatural or a self-fulfilling prophecy. It was simply because I hadn’t realized that the elements in the album’s lyrics were reflections of my future life journey, which I had carried with me in the past as spiritual “provisions.” It wasn’t until recently that I understood, after I began delving into theories in Quantum Mechanics about the holographic universe, that I learned that time is merely an illusion, and nothing is linear. What is called space-time is merely a manifestation of what is called quantum-entanglement, the interconnection of energies resulting from the interaction of subatomic particles. Physicists in Quantum Mechanics have discovered this and its mathematical formulation can be proven. There are also mathematicians who are also “futurists” in predicting the possibilities that will occur in the future just by monitoring and calculating existing social phenomena according to mathematical formulas, one of them is Dr. Johan Galtung, who based on his calculations in the early 2000s, the U.S. empire will collapse and end in 2020s. I see that it is very possible to happen, let’s watch together.
Chapter 4: Culture, Technology and Religion
EJM: Would you describe your project as part of the observation of cultural phenomena, why?
Jeff: Regarding cultural phenomena, I don’t think this is a major topic in writing the lyrics for Kekal. Culture is essentially a form of social interaction between people in one place, who then collectively interact with other people in different places. The amalgamation of these interactions forms a culture. I see culture as a product of human interaction at the collective level, nothing more and nothing less. Architecture is never separate from culture. Religion is part of culture. Metal music is already a culture today. Consumerism has also become a culture, especially for people living in big cities. Recently, K-Pop has become a culture, one that is “forced” in nature because it was born from global promotion at the corporate level. Culture can form both naturally and artificially. Only time will determine whether the formation of a culture is genuine or not. Culture that forms naturally will last much longer. A good example of the development of a complete culture where there is a close relationship between fashion, music, and religion is in the island of Jamaica, with the emergence of reggae music and its connection to the Rastafarian religion and lifestyle reflected in their strong-character fashion.
EJM: The internet has changed the way people access music, do you see any other effects on the way people ‘connect’ with a band?
Jeff: Oh, of course there is! Social media is the main culprit, and this only started about ten years ago, especially with the emergence of Facebook and Twitter, then messengers like WhatsApp and so on. I personally don’t like using social media, but society in general has become too carried away by using it as the sole means of online communication. Even email has begun to be abandoned. Social media is actually a method of mass deception, created so that world rulers (control systems) can take over and control the formation of opinion in a society that was almost “lost” with the advent of the Internet, where individuals could find out a lot about the knowledge these rulers try to hide.
Social media was born because the authorities saw a change in the mindset of people who access the Internet, which, if left unchecked, could become a serious “threat” to their continued dominance over humanity. So it’s not only aimed at maximizing profits but also as a method of mass control by shaping opinion at the collective level. The goal is the same as radio and TV in the past, which were used as media for propaganda. When the internet emerged, many people abandoned radio and TV, proactively seeking out new things and learning from them. Therefore, the authorities (I’m talking on a global scale, the world’s rulers) had to find alternatives to proactively curb the use of internet in terms of seeking knowledge based on individual curiosity, so that knowledge that had long been suppressed and hidden could not be easily accessed and circulated. And not only that, but also so that dogma and propaganda (propaganda and dogma are essentially the same thing: shaping public opinion) could be more easily spread through peer sharing. Social media is the toughest gatekeeper of the ruling elite. Currently, this is an era where methods of mass deception are at a very “advanced” and very aggressive level, and the use of online trolls paid to provoke and spread disinformation. Many people have been affected by this “information deception” and provoked, leading to fights at the grassroots level. The evidence is abundant. Regarding the listener issue related to the band, I don’t really care about that, but I can see that social media also plays a role in controlling the spread of information from the band to the listeners.
EJM: In your view, is technology more like a hidden tool that shapes the world?
Jeff: If we look back at the history of civilization and finding out the origins of when and how technology emerged, it will be very surprising that technology appeared “suddenly.” It all started with what is called the Neolithic Revolution around 12 thousand years ago where suddenly (I emphasize the word suddenly) humans were able to be in a very complex system with the emergence of “advanced civilization” with all the basic sciences such as mathematics, physics, metallurgy, architecture, astronomy, astrology, to the savings and loan economic system, and also the beginning of conquest, war, slavery and so on.
The world that “formed” today is not a world that was normally and naturally formed from a long evolutionary process, but from intervention at the “external” level. Why? Because our species existed long before the Neolithic Revolution appeared, and for tens of thousands of years before that (some theories say even hundreds of thousands of years) there were no significant changes in the social life of early humans before the Neolithic Revolution. This is something I have studied quite deeply and I am still learning by connecting many points from various aspects. It’s difficult for me to fully explain it here, but essentially, all of today’s technology stems from the fundamental knowledge that suddenly emerged during the era known as the Neolithic Revolution. Manifestations of evil through exploitation also began to emerge during this era, and today we only see its excesses.
EJM: Regardless of your views on religion, religious belief is on the rise globally as the world becomes more pluralistic and diverse. How is religion adapting to the current situation?
Jeff: In my opinion, religion is not a form of thought process or, in other words, a concept that can adapt to the surrounding circumstances. In my view, religion is part of culture and inseparable from cultural dynamics. It’s a manifestation of interactions between individuals within a social context within a particular community, where individuals exchange ideas and perform certain customs (rituals). Over time, the manifestation of these interactions eventually becomes a more “standard” norm. If we look further back into human history, religion has never been separated from culture itself and is also part of its traditions, same with art and music, so it’s not just religion.
Now, once it enters a more complex societal pattern where one culture interacts with another due to mass migration between existing communities, religion becomes more defined and there comes a point where it finally emerges or is separated from the context of social life in general. Here, religion then becomes an alternative choice, even though it remains a “culture.” Practically, it’s no different from a fan club, or a community of fans of a particular football club, motorcycle club, or goth or emo community, with all the conformity and other social “rules” their followers bring. The only difference lies in their content. Religious belief itself has nothing to do with human spirituality, although religion itself contains elements that can lead its followers to a fundamental understanding of spirituality. Religion is collective and exists on the surface (exoteric), while spirituality is personal and individual, looking deeper inward (esoteric).
What I see as this increase is actually a phenomenon of individual longings emerging to enhance their spirituality along with an inner emptiness, due to the growing alienation of humans from nature, their fellow humans, and their habitat, which has become increasingly strong and can no longer be suppressed. Therefore, it’s not due to a change in society that is becoming more pluralistic. Many people, for some reason, still confuse the concept and application of religion with spirituality. They likely use religion as a “replacement” for spirituality, believing it’s the same thing. Again, this may be because they struggle to find themselves in a time when social conformity (which may also be driven by social media) is so dominant. It’s ironic, but that’s what seems to be happening today.
EJM: How does living religion manifest itself in diverse cultural contexts?
Jeff: I don’t have an opinion on this matter, because I don’t want to think politically, meaning anything related to social policy-making. I also don’t believe that religion can be called alive, because it is simply a human-created social system that is part of culture. If we observe, we can see that the more diverse cultures, the more diverse religions become, because all of these things go hand in hand. We can also see the process of cultural formation in the music scene, which is visible in the development of genres and sub-genres with all their “rules” and “limitations,” very parallel to the development of denominations or “branches” of existing religions, because in fact, all of these are the same thing in the sense that they are the dynamics of cultural formation itself.
What can be said is that life is a harmonious relationship between humans and themselves, with each other, with their habitat, with their environment, with nature, the Earth, and with its Source (namely God). All of this can only be defined through what is called Unconditional Love as the only positive energy that unites and brings harmony to life, both in the current dimension and other dimensions. This material/physical life is actually only a simulation so that humans can learn to understand and practice Unconditional Love. Here we no longer question the details that in reality are only movements that exist on the surface, because what is beneath the surface is more fundamental.
EJM: One more thing: We would like to know more about your personal perspective on human efforts to ‘imitate God’ and perhaps the goals promoted through genetic engineering, docetism, artificial intelligence, ‘psychological warfare’ and the dialectics of today’s world?
Jeff: I personally view this phenomena from a different perspective. Essentially, all of the above are merely excesses; signs and symptoms that appear on the surface as a result of more “serious” underlying issues that are not visible. For example, when we see someone vomiting or defecating in public, we don’t focus on how to get them to vomit and defecate in the “proper” places, or commenting on the etiquette and hygiene rules that should be applied to them, but rather on figuring out what caused them to vomit and defecate. By no longer focusing on the excesses that arise, we can try to find the causes of these phenomena.
From what I’ve learned over the past few years, this pertains to the manifestation of certain energies. Negative energies that enter human minds and intentions, manifest through tendencies to dominate, to destroy each other (predatory), and also to be manipulative and exploitative. Many of these things aren’t quite visible on the surface, but we often encounter them because they exist in many people, of course, on a certain scale, sometimes still within “normative” boundaries and not clearly visible in their excesses. Our world is filled with these negative energies, not just full of them but dominated by them, which in religious or cultural contexts are sometimes referred to as evil spirits. This also occurs at the cosmic level, but I don’t need to discuss that, even though it’s all relevant, because our world is also a place where both positive and negative energies are materially manifested into things that can be perceived. In essence, this negative energy is not the primal force of the whole human being because of its exploitative and predatory nature, which is contrary to the “true nature” of humans. Therefore, we also know the term “inhuman” to refer to such exploitative and predatory behaviors.
EJM: Awesome! We really appreciate your time answering our questions, but unfortunately, this concludes the interview. Please leave a message for us and our readers!
Jeff: Thank you for taking the time to read this Q&A. I hope my writings don’t disturb your thoughts and activities, but can instead be a source of inspiration for sharing ideas with other adult family members, your boyfriend/girlfriend, or your spouse.
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